We know, we know, we’re supposed to be generous to the old and infirm, and act like Helen Thomas is some sort of national treasure, but Jewdar is not inclined to be generous, nor to show any deference to someone who expresses the views expressed by Ms. Thomas in her recent Playboy interview. Jewdar has two big issues.
The first, is that, despite her claims that she’s merely “anti-Zionist,” she seems to consider “Jews” and “Zionists” as synonymous, and thus seamlessly shifts from discussing “Zionists,” the “Israel lobby” and “propagandists against the Arabs” to declaring there’s an open Jewish conspiracy at work in America that runs the country. If that’s not antisemitic, we’re not sure what is, even if Ms. Thomas wants to claim that Jews are “Europeans” and not “Semites (and somebody might want to let her know that the word “antisemitic” was specifically made up by an antisemite to refer to Jews).
A little antisemitic conspiracy theory, however, is not the sort of thing to get Jewdar too worked up. More critical for us is her continued assertion that Israelis don’t belong in the Land of Israel and should go back to Europe. Let’s leave aside, of course, the fact that at least 40% of Israel’s Jewish population is descended from Jews who lived in the Muslim world prior to 1948, many of whom were suffering at times considerable discrimination in their own lands, and in some cases, were expelled. Rather, let’s focus on this one line:
“Sure, the Israelis have a right to exist—but where they were born, not to come and take someone else’s home.”
We don’t care how grand a dame or doyenne or whatever it is she’s supposed to be she is, somebody has to let her know that over 60 years has passed since the founding of the State of Israel. The average Israeli wasn’t born somewhere else, he or she was born in Israel. And they aren’t taking someone else’s home, they are living in their own homes.
While Jewdar believes in the establishment of a Palestinian state in most of the West Bank and Gaza, and opposes the building of more settlements,etc. etc., we do so because we believe in human rights, and that the Palestinians who live in the West Bank are entitled to peace, and security and democracy. They don’t have a right to a state; they have a right to basic civil rights, and if Israel won’t give it to them within the framework of Israeli citizenship, then they need to let them have their own state.
Ms. Thomas, for all her blather, is no lover of human rights–rather, she is someone who seeks to redress the dispossession of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians during the ’48 War (most of whom were not explicitly expelled or driven out by Israel but fled as a result of the war launched by the Arab regimes) by dispossessing millions of Israelis. Palestinians have rights; so do Israelis. It’s not because God gave us the land, or some Jews lived there for thousands of years, or we won it fair and square in a war. They have rights because they are human beings who live there now, and have the same rights to peace and security and democracy that Ms. Thomas would like to extend to the Palestinians. Jewdar finds it repugnant when Jews advocate the dispossession of Palestinians; we find it at least as repugnant when Arabs advocate the dispossession of Jews.
Ms. Thomas has had a distinguished career, and has plenty of laurels to rest on. But if she chooses to punctuate that career with statements that deny the essential human rights of millions of Israelis, then Jewdar is perfectly fine with remembering her for that. For a journalist, there should be no greater tribute than to be remembered for your words.
Anti-Zionism is simply the most expedient form of Anti-Semitism in our world today… She might as well say, “I don’t hate all the Jews, just the 5,500,000 Jews who live in Israel: I wouldn’t hate them if they would just leave!”
Well at least Hugh Hefner finally found an age appropriate girlfriend!
You all seem to be forgetting how the whole thing started. At the beginning of the last century there was the League of Nations (the UN predecessor) resolution to build a Jewish state in Israel. The land for Israel included what is Jordan today. However the British who got the job to it betrayed their mission and instated of allowing Jews into Israel they enticed Moslem migrant worker to come to Israel. Further they ripped off significant part of the Israel and gave it to the Hashemite kingdom. So as we stand today these Moslem migrant workers claim that they were there for thousand of years but this is not true. Further the Moslem Dictators always used Israel whenever they had internal problem. I can go on for a long writ about it but I will not at this time but I think that every Jew must know the facts and don’t start the conflict with the Six Days War because Moslem hostilities against the Jews start much earlier then the Six Day War. I think as Jews we must spread this word and don’t adopt the story that occupation is the reason for the hostilities. Unfortunately there are many Jews who adopted the Moslem propaganda and this is very sick. As for Helen Thomas she is a bigot there is not question about it but she is also responsible for the plight for Moslem refugees by not exposing that the Moslem dictator used them to pressure Israel and the west and most of the money for the refugees ended up in the pockets of the Moslem dictators. So lets spread the word and lets not blame ourselves because there are plenty other who are glad to blame us for anything live or dead in the Universe.
Yuli, let us pretend that anything that the League of Nations did mattered. The mandate, and the Balfour declaration on which it was based, most definitely said nothing about a Jewish state, or Israel, or how much of “Palestine” the “Jewish national home” (whatever that is) would be on. There was not “Palestine” in 1917 other than in the minds of various europeans, the area that would be Israel being divided into about half-a dozen Ottoman provinces and sub-provinces. So when the Balfour Declaration said the Brits needed to be developing a “Jewish national home” in “Palestine,” zionists may have interpreted that to mean “all of Palestine,” but that’s not what the document said, and insofar as there was no definition of what constituted Palestine at the time, even that left considerable room for conjecture. Transjordan was established before the Mandate was given, so that’s pretty irrelevant. As for the Arab population of the Land of Israel (no need to call it Palestine before 1918, no need to pretend it wasn’t called Palestine after 1918), the Ottoman census data, sketchy as it was, suggests that in 1880, the population had about 24,000 Jews and about 480,000 non-Jews, most of whom would today be considered Arabs, and Achad Ha’am pointed out that in the late 19th century, most of the arable land was already cultivated by Arabs. And the phrase “Moslem dictators” is not terribly useful when discussing dictators like Nasser, Assad and Hussein who, Muslims though they may have been, were secularists. I’m all for spreading the truth, but it should be better informed.
As for blame, let’s do something crazy, and instead of accepting blame for everything, or accepting blame for nothing, be honest and accept blame for those thing for which we are actually responsible. Or shall we presume that Israel, alone among nations, has never, ever, ever done anything wrong?
Jewdar, I get the impression that you are a J-street kind of guy. Anyway the problem is the war the Moslems have mounted against the Jews and it had noting to do with Six Days War because the Moslem hostilities against the Jews were there even before the independence war. This is the root cause of the problem and don’t believe that it has to do with one part of the land or the other. The Moslems have plenty of land and they do not need Israel. Besides the Moslem did not recognize the stat of Israel before the Six Days War so why all of a sudden they want the 1948 truce borders? Who said it belong to the Moslems? The talk about the refugees is just to pressure Israel and the west. This land was Jewish land for many years and basically mostly deserted for a long time because there was nothing there, especially no oil. So when the Jews started the return it was basically to an empty land with not many Moslem there but the Moslem came to Israel as migrant worker because of the prosperity the Jews brought and enticement by the British. You can see it even today as very many migrant workers coming to Israel and many Arabs want to live in Israel not under the PA rule. For example the Siluan Arab village by Jerusalem was not there at the beginning of last century but now it is there and there are many such sites. I think that your interpretation of the events is wrong. Jordan was created by the British. You can see also that no one argue about the right of Jordan to exist and do you know why? (I will give you a hint, Jordan is a Moslem country). There is not history about a Jordan state or nation and certainly no history of a “Palestinian” nation. It is all a recent invention. Anyway my point to this is the there are many nations in the world who dislike Jews and would like to see Jews disappear from the world so there is not need to help them certainly not by Jews unless these Jews suffer from self-hatred. Arguments like yours play to the hands of Moslems and other Jew haters. Don’t be right, be smart (not that you are right).
I’m a former right-wing Zionist who read and learned a lot and became a left-wing Zionist kind of guy.
The land was not deserted prior to the 1880’s. the population was obviously smaller, but the non-Jewish population was about 20 times larger than the Jewish population, and the arable land was virtually all being used. There was an Arab migration after the Mandate, but that’s irrelevant to the question of what was there before the Zionist movement.
I never said transjordan wasn’t created by the British. It was was. But it was created before the League issued it’s mandate, so it’s irrelevant to your earlier comments about taking land away from the mandate.
There was no Palestinian nation in 1880, there was one by 1980. That’s what happens. You might as well argue that there’s no such thing as an American nation, since there wasn’t one in 1754. Yet somehow, by 1776, something calling itself the United States of America declared independence.
I’m right, and smart. Certainly, smart enough to be aware that you can call them whatever you want to, but there are millions of people whose destinies Israel controls, but who don’t have a vote, and that’s not right. Since I’d rather have Israel as a small Jewish state than a larger Arab state, I’d prefer Palestinian statehood to giving them Israeli citizenship. And trying to control them is ultimately a dead end, morally and demographically.
You miss the point of all this. Jordan was created by the British instead of giving it to the Jews as was decreed. Of course the British could not do a thing about it before the end of the First World War because the Ottoman (Turkish) rule of the land. They May have done it before the final vote was cast in the League of Nations but it is just the same. The land was destined for Jews and the Moslem got it. Therefore it is OK for the Jews to get the land. Also you did not explain why Jordan is accepted in the world even if the Hashemite are not part of the land or the inhabitants of Jordan. Doesn’t this tell you that the war is between Moslem and Jews and the Palestinian are nothing more then a decoration for the Moslem dictators? After all the Moslem and the left should protest the creation of Jordan as they protest the creation of the state of Israel. But they do not protest this, why? You say you are left but these days this synonym with anarchy. The left is against Israel and serves as useful idiots for terror as we can see all over. There are atrocities all over the world but everyone is concentrated on Israel the only democracy in the Middle East. Doesn’t this tell you that all this is orchestrated specifically against Israel? It seems that it is safe to protest against Israel so they do it but forget China, Sudan, all the Moslem dictatorship, the war against the Kurds and more. The point is that there are many in the world that are and were against Israel and any writing like yours is used to help them against Israel. As I said before we got many enemies and there is not need to have enemies from the inside as the left traditionally is, that is, enemy from the inside helping the terror and working against the state of Israel and the Jews in general. Please consider the effect and consequence of what you write, what does it do in the real world who reads it and who uses it. Let the other side justify their point and you need to justify the Jewish point.
Please read both the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate, and consult a map of the Middle East from before 1918. Nothing was “decreed.” There was no “Palestine” in November 1917, the Jews weren’t promised “Palestine” by the Balfour DEclaration,” and the Balfour Declaration never promised Jews a state, but rather a “national home” which would not prejudice “the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,” which at the time outnumbered Jews by 9 to 1 or so.
Prior to 1967, most of the world had no problem with Israel. If you want to deal with specific countries, that’s fine, but even today, most countries in the world recognize Israel, they just don’t recognize it’s right to rule over the Palestinians.
The Palestinians are pawns, but they exist, and their concerns are real. The issue isn’t “land” it’s people. Arabs need to quit pretending that the Israelis don’t exist, and some Jews need to quit pretending that the Palestinians don’t exist. Who cares about what the League of Nations did or didn’t do? The reality is that Israel controls the lives of millions of people who have no say, and historically, Israeli rule has been oppressive in a number of ways. That’s reality.
It’s also reality that Israel will one day leave most of the West Bank. Demographics, economics, diplomacy–it’s going to happen. So the question is twofold. One, do we perpetuate more violence to prevent an end that’s inevitable, and two, do we do that on our terms, or theirs? Because the longer we push it off, the more likely it’s going to be that there will be a settlement imposed on Israel. But please, talk about what you think happened after WWI. Then Israel can join all those other successful post-war creations like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.
Again Jewar you miss the point. When was justice a part of any international resolution? Who interprets what is justice? Whatever was written is subject to interpretation. Everyone is against us the Jews and this is no a conspiracy theory because who will side with Israel when there are so many Moslem Nations in the UN and they are a big voting block and they got also most of the oil and most the land in the world. See all the agreements with the PA. Did the PA keep any of them? No! See the truce with the Moslem countries. Did they keep any of them? No! See the Peace with Egypt; they fight us via proxy now by allowing weapon and solders into the Gaza Strip. Why was the Israeli independence war? After all there are agreements which the Moslem dictators broke and you and your associates do not voice any thing except blame Israel and the Jews. Why did we need the Six Days War? After all the Moslem had the territories they claiming now so why didn’t they established the Palestinian state then? Doesn’t this give you an idea that the refugees were just a tool the Moslem dictators use to pressure Israel and west? I noticed you wrote a book about Jewish conspiracy theory. Why don’t write a book about the conspiracy of the Moslems to destroy the state of Israel and help they get from the far left and other anarchist? Are you afraid that one Ayatollah will not like your book and may put a contract on your life? I can’t imagine that you are afraid after all you sound very brave. Glenn Beck already figured it and he is not a Jew. Why can’t you figure that the Moslem want to destroy the state of Israel? Anyway the problem I am bringing is about who is helping and who is against the state of Israel. It seems to me that with your writing you and your associates you are de-facto against the state of Israel and the Jews. Maybe your intentions are noble but you know that the way to hell is full of good intentions. In you reply please address this point not some documents.
I responded to documents, because you cited documents. I didn’t bring up the Mandate, you did.
Look, it’s very simple. Palestinians exist, Israelis rule over them. If you want to continue to do so, great, go ahead. Set up road blocks, and imprison them, and keep them from getting building permits, and take their water, and so on. But then don’t be surprised if “the world” is against Israel, because while you might feel that having a Jewish state justifies denying Palestinians basic rights, but there’s no reason the rest of the world should.
As for me, I make fun of and criticize Muslims all the time, so you’ve got the wrong guy.
And here’s the thing, Yuli all you keep doing is talking about what happened in the past–’22, and ’48, and ’67. None of that changes the reality of today and the future.
As for Muslims wanting to destroy Israel, of course they do, which is why I would like to make sure they have as little opportunity to do so as possible. Making sure that Israel is a pariah state hardly seems a recipe for success, especially since, as the Palestinian population increases, it will only be harder to control them.
The funny thing is, you keep acting like I’m not critical of Arab anti-Zionism. This whole thing started when I wrote a piece criticizing Helen Thomas.
As for a book about Muslim conspiracies to destroy Israel, you find me the publisher, I’ll write you the book. Deal?
Well, in a nutshell, Jewar, you have adopted the propaganda of the enemies of the Jewish people. You write about the road blocks but you forget to mention that they stopped the Moslem attacks on the people of Israel. You keep telling lies about building permits and so on. You talk about the rule over the Palestinians but you forger to mention that it is because the Six Days War that the Moslems mounted against the Jews. The only way out of this is to start fighting back against all the lies we read in the press or on TV which are based on Moslem propaganda. At the end of the day the Moslem do not recognize the state of Israel or the right of the Jews for their own land. Don’t forget this because this is the root cause of all the problems and not what you cited. I see many Jews who adopted the propaganda of the enemies and I just cant’ believe that I see it but I see it. First these Jews spread lies or don’t correct false information about Israel and the situation with the Moslem and then they tell us that the whole world is against Israel. It reminds me of Jews who helped the Nazi kill other Jews or even Jews who convinced other Jews to come back to the Ghetto from the forests because the Nazi promised that no harm will come to them. As for the publisher, I am sorry I can’t help you I am not in this business. However you could find a publisher to publish Jewish conspiracies but you can’t find one to publish Moslem conspiracies against the Jews? Does this tell you something?
Yuli-I suggest you actually read “The Big Book of Jewish Conspiracies.” It is a satire on the whole idea of so-called “Jewish Conspiracies” and was quite funny. That is why it was published!
Yuli, the fact that you are talking about my book without having the slightest clue that it makes fun of antisemites tells me all I need to know. Do some more reading on the subjects you discuss. You discuss the Mandate without knowing what it says, you discuss the demographics of the Land of Israel in the 19th century without having any sense of the population, you discuss the Israeli policy in the West Bank without knowing its origins or intent (hint–Moshe Dayan viewed maintaining a minimal level of services as a means of encouraging Palestinians to leave). I’d recommend Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris. I’m sure you’ll disregard it as simply being anti-zionist (for the record, Morris is both an Israeli and a Zionist), but it’s generally regarded as an important piece of history.
Finally, I notice in all of this that you still haven’t offered any suggestion of what to do with the Palestinians. All you do is is criticize Muslims, criticize Jews who don’t agree with you, and talk about irrelevant points of history. The difference between me and you is that we both want Israel to thrive, but you think the way to do that is to be concerned about what happened in 1922 and 1948, while I think we need to be more concerned about what may happen in 2022 and 2048.
To Suzy and Jewar I did not read the book and many people tell me to read all kind of books too. My opinion on this “reads the book” proposition is that in most cases it is a form of communication designed to avoid the issue hand. Also I can tell you that as guy who grew up in Israel and have been in many wars with the Moslems and learned first hand about the conflict I find very many of such “humor” are trying to mask other problems or fears. I do not think this “humor” is funny in most cases and I think it misses the point of protecting the Jews. It can be also used by Jew haters and they got now a Jewish reference for that which will work as credible information with people who do not have time to figure out what is going on in Israel which is most of the people in the world. My point was that Jewar could find a publisher for Jewish conspiracy but not for Moslem and I wondered if it bothered him. As for the book it could be funny but I am not sure.
As for Jewar response I think the Palestinians should be settled in the Moslem countries, not return to Israel. This should have been done after the 1948 war but the Moslem figured that it would be better to keep the refugees in camps to pressure Israel. Please remember that there were very many refugees in the world and they were settled even in countries with completely different culture then the refugees were used too and made it. It would have been very easy for the Moslem refugees to settle in the various Moslem countries. Please also note that half of the Jewish population in Israel is Jewish refugees from Moslem countries. Please note, Jewar, again, that with the views that you hold you seem to be adopting the Moslem propaganda that is blaming the Jews for all the problems. You could at the same way adopt the Jewish point and blame the Moslem for that. The fact is that the Moslems never recognized the right of the Jews to be in Israel. They even built a Mosque of the holiest place of Jews showing an utter disrespect to the holy places of the Jews and to the Jews. There is more to say but then there are Jews that for whatever reasons adopt the propaganda against Israel and they think they are bringing peace to world. So please consider, Jewar, that with your opinions you working against the Jews. By the way, I argue only with people who do not agree with me.
Yuli, I don’t care if you read the book or not, I care that you make assertions about a book you haven’t read which are completely wrong. You make assertions about the Balfour Declaration that are completely wrong. You make assertions about the history of Israel that are completely wrong. And when called on it, you raise irrelevant issues, and seem to take pride in your lack of depth. Your response makes no sense. I work for a jewish humor magazine, a publisher came to us to write a Jewish humor book. It would have been kind of weird to have been asked to write a Muslim humor book, don’t you think?
As for Palestinian refugees in the Arab world, you’re absolutely right that the Arab states, which caused the war that led to flight/expulsion of the refugees, have treated them abominably, and that millions of others made refugees at the same time (Germans, Pakistanis, Indians, etc) were given refuge by their people. That’s an argument to be made for not admitting Palestinians to Israel, which I agree with. When the Palestinians get a state, that’s where the Palestinian refugees should go.
But you are absolutely delusional if you think that Israel is ever going to expel the Palestinians. It’s never going to happen. If you’re basing a policy on that, you’re delusional. Israel couldn’t even expel Yassir Arafat, how do you think they are going to expel millions of civilians? And let’s be clear–it would be an expulsion. All this talk about “settling” them elsewhere is just cowardly euphemism. Since they will refuse to be “settled,” they will have to be expelled, and US and the world will never allow that to happen. But let’s examine your “pro-Israel” scenario.
Israel announces it will expel the Palestinians.
The US tells them not to.
Israel begins the process.
the UN Security Council votes sanctions, nobody trades with Israel, the world stops supplying fuel, Israel’s economy collapses, and they fail anyway, because Israel could only expel the Palestinians by going to war with their neighbors, which they can’t do without support, fuel, etc from the US.
Gee, that’s really a great scenario. you must really love Israel.
You’re the man!!!
Jewar lets not change the subject. The problem is that you still adopt the Moslem propaganda against the Jews and that hurt the Jews and I don’t understand why you do it. I don’t need to read your book because with the position you hold I can’t imagine that anything good will come to the Jewish people from your book the way I see it. It is possible that you have your own followers who think the book is good. In the same way I don’t have to read books by Karl Marks to know that it is junk and there are many other similar example. Just because you can read and quote does not mean that it has anything to do with the problem at hand.
I am glad that you agree with me about he refugees. I wonder if you voiced it in all your wrings. I know that I mention this any time someone asks me about the area and the situation. Another question is if you understand it why you adopt the Moslem propaganda?
As for the “expulsion” as you wrote no one talk about this. We talk about changing population such that the Moslem. Large blocks of Moslem villages in Israel will move to the PA and Israel will get other land in substitution. Transfers also can take place and it was done before. For example Egypt moved 120000 people from their land as part of the Aswan dam. So it is possible if there is a good will. The funny part of all this is that the Arabs in Israel don’t want to live under PA rule. At the end of the day you got to remember that the Jews are not welcomed in the Middle East and the Moslem will lie any which way they can and it is very sad and indeed bewildering to see Jews adopting such lies.
I didn’t say you should read my book; I said you shouldn’t speak about subjects which you clearly don’t know about, like my book, the League of Nations Mandate, Ottoman demographics, etc.
Please give me examples of Muslim propaganda I’ve cited that isn’t supported by evidence. My sources are all Israeli. Or by “propaganda,” do you just mean history with which you disagree?
What do you mean “large blocks of Muslim villages in Israel will move to the PA?” Do mean tranferring the land that the villages are on? You don’t want to give the Palestinians a state, so they’ll still be under Israeli rule. The question I asked was what will you do with the Palestinians, not the Israeli Arabs. By the way, I have no problem with transferring heavily Arab populated sections of Galil to the PA (not moving the people, just transferring the land with the people to PA control), but unless you create a Palestinian state, you’re just moving Israeli citizens who have rights to an entity (the PA) where they have no rights. Who would want to live in such circumstances. My question was not about Israeli Arabs, but Palestinians. Israeli Arabs, as citizens, aren’t an issue. The world doesn’t care about Israel Arab citizens of Israel. The issue is the Palestinians in the West Bank, not Israeli Arabs in Israel, or Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon. You have never addressed what Israel is supposed to do about the Palestinians in the territories under Israeli control.
Actually, let’s simplify before the next round, and deal with each issue one at a time. Rather than just accuse me of spouting “Moslem propaganda,” why don’t you actually tell me what specifically I’ve said that is historically incorrect. Please be specific, and provide evidence. Meaning, if you think I’ve said something that isn’t true, please let me know what it was, and what the actual facts are, and please provide your source.
First please notice the language you used in your reply. You wrote “My sources are all Israeli”. Which Israeli? I don’t recall you talked to me before. This is exactly how Jew haters work, they quote Jews and this convinces people who are not familiar with the situation. After all a Jew said that the Jews are bad or Israel is bad then they he must know and this is how we get in trouble. Extreme example of this was a Jew who wrote against the Jews and even committed suicide because he could not live a Jew. The Nazi jumped on this and used his remarks against the Jews. Even today we got few such cases. Of course this is extreme situation but I am sure you get the point. Therefore I do not say anything bad about the Jews or about Israel because there is plenty of others in the world who will gladly do it and I got to fight them. I suggest you do the same. As for the “Israeli” as you wrote there are very many opinions in Israel and many of them just harm the position of the state of Israel. However please notice that you maybe not prejudice but I would say you seem to be pre-disposed to certain opinion. Therefore it seems that you are doing just as the Jew haters do which is to select the info you want and use it.
As for adopting the propaganda of the Moslem or enemies in general this is easy. Anytime you agree with the other side before you get to the negotiation table you are adopting the propaganda of the enemy. You don’t get anything for free so don’t give anything for free. The best policy it to argue against anything the enemy says even if you think that they are right and at the end they will get the specific item. That is exactly what I do. During the negotiation if you are asked to give away something then ask for something in return. Unfortunately we got few dumb Jews like Shimon Peres and Yzkhak Rabin who actually sold the state of Israel for the Nobel Prize. There are other Idiots in Israel and in the Jewish world, like George Soros, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Noam Chomsky and many other who fill the position of useful idiots for the terror and the destruction of the state of Israel. I hope you are not one of them.
Brezinski is not Jewish, another one you got wrong.
So in other words, you can’t actually say that anything I’ve said is factually incorrect.
Who cares if you are correct or not? Since when the world is run by correctness or Justice? Wake up the world is run by perception. Do you think all the stuff that was told about the Jews is correct? Do you think all the reports about the events in Israel are correct? Anyway it seems that you stuck too much about correctness while the other side lies any time it can. Therefore it seems that you are not helping the Jewish cause with all your correcness. Thanks for correcting me about Brzezinski. He looks stupid for a diplomat so naturally I thought he was Jewish.
Great, so we’ve established that I’m not wrong. Next question: Since I’m no wrong, what have I actually said that you find so offensive? Keep in mind, this started when I posted a blog post defending Israel against Arab propaganda.
Jewar, I did not say you are correct I just said who cares who if you are correct or wrong. I am not going to get into details about your ideas because I really don’t’ know them that well, maybe you should mention them. My point is that anything you say that can be perceived against Israel or the Jews is not good and will work against the Jews and Israel. The situation we got is a matter of perception because most people in the world just don’t’ know what is really going on and they rely on TV or print news which relies on rating to sell commercial time or space. The Moslem have so much land and everybody things Israel it the giant. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East among savages and people in the world hate Israel possibly because of the bad press we get. The Moslem refugees are stuck in camps because the Moslem dictators kept them there and Israel is blamed for it. The Moslem dictators went to war against Israel many times and Israel is considered the attacker and occupier. The PA and the Moslem don’t recognize the rights of the Jews for the land and Israel is considered the one who is an obstacle to peace. The Moslems have many voting country in the UN and these savages tell up about human rights. On a good day the Jews are not loved by many people in the world because there are maybe 20 million Jews compared to billion Moslems. I am sure you can add to this list. I am sure you can see how perception works and were we need to concentrate our efforts. Why not bring this up instead of your argument at the beginning about the creation of Jordan or how many Moslems were in Israel and cantons and settlements and other things. Always remember the big picture and understand the consequence of what you say and who’s listening, etc. At the end we may sit and negotiate with the savages but anything you give up now is perceived as fear and it does not help our situation.
So once again, without engaging in a long speech on the Muslim world, what is it that I’ve said which is anti-Israel?
You had few good points in your article but overall it strikes me as apologetic without getting the Jewish/Israeli point in a forceful manner. If I was to write your article I would start by bringing out some of the history of the conflict, accuse the Moslem for not recognizing Israel and the right of the Jews, and the fact that the Moslem dictators started all the wars and kept the refugees in camp to pressure Israel and the west and get rich in the process from the refugee money. Then flat out accuse Thomas of actually forcing the refugees to stay in camp. This is because she is in a position to know that the refugees are kept in camps to pressure Israel and the west and also get enough suicide operators to terrorize Israel and the world. Of course had the refugees been settled there was not conflict or the dictators would have come with really creative reason for continuing the conflict. Another thing you forgot to bring is the plight of the Jews in the Moslem world and the fact that half of the Jews in Israel are from Moslem country so they would not be able to return to Europe which I would continue to write that this shows the Thomas is completely ignorant about the situation and God only know what else she was ignorant about in her long reporting career. Instead of the rights of the PA as you wrote I would have written that had they been absorbed in the host countries as they should have been as all other refugees in the world were then there was no PA problem. I would not give Thomas any praise as you did simply because she was exposed as a bigot. I would definitely dwell on the point that Thomas was in a position to know about the plight of the refugees but did not say anything about so she is a part of the problem the refugees have and of course a bigot. In general I would very forcefully attack anything she said and simply turn the blame on her which is the truth. You did some but I think people who are not familiar with the situation would miss your points and certainly will get them to think about situation.
Yuli, it’s a blog post, not a book. She made anti-Israel remarks, I responded to those remarks. But even there, I actually did make some of the precise points you suggest I should have made, e.g., Jews from Muslim countries:
“More critical for us is her continued assertion that Israelis don’t belong in the Land of Israel and should go back to Europe. Let’s leave aside, of course, the fact that at least 40% of Israel’s Jewish population is descended from Jews who lived in the Muslim world prior to 1948, many of whom were suffering at times considerable discrimination in their own lands, and in some cases, were expelled.”
Yuli, there are no shortage of actual anti-Israel bloggers out there. Maybe you should focus your attention on some of them.
I’ve had the honor of meeting Helen Thomas. I am Jewish, and while her comments are very disheartening, I can say that she is not anti-semitic in any sort of way. She is merely old school. And while her comments are cruel, they speak of a generational difference. Understand, one of her best friends was Jewish as well. There are many people who feel the same way she does, with age and frustration, she just decided to voice it.
Helen Thomas is definitely anti Israel and anti Jewish and anti Semitic and clearly does not care about the plight of the Moslem refugees. You can conclude all this from her reporting over the years and her interview and TV appearance of late. She never explained to the world that the Moslem refugees are kept in the camps just to pressure Israel and the west and in general to weaken Israel stand in the world opinion. She never explained why would the Moslem dictators care about the refugees since the kill more between each other and don’t care of each other. She never considered that there is not Palestinian nation and there is not history of Palestinian nation but there is significant Jewish history in Israel, including Jordan, much earlier then both Christianity and Islam. With her comment demanding the Jews go back to Europe she is completely ignorant that half of the Jews in Israel are Jewish refugees from Moslem countries. She never mentioned that all Moslem countries are dictatorships in which the dictators use Israel and the refugees anytime they have internal problem. Therefore I conclude that Helen is knowingly anti Israeli which means anti Jewish even if it hurts the Moslem refugees. Besides, what is Helen’s frustration as Maayan wrote? Is the fact that Israel is thriving democracy compared to the Middle Ages Moslem dictatorships? Or maybe Helen is frustrated because Israel exists? Maybe Maayan will be kind and explain this point. Certainly the reported line of Maayan “one of her best friends was Jewish” seems to be taken from the handbook of the common anti Semite or from the handbook of the common bigot. I find it repugnant that we Jews have to battle other seemingly Jewish people who adopt and propagate the anti Semite propaganda instead of fighting such propaganda and exposing the lies of such propaganda. I wonder if Maayan is a J-Street kind of person.